Take a car with an internal combustion engine and replace everything that is needed for an electric car. Now you have a no-nonsense car.
Instead, we have a rolling data center that feels like a smartphone.
OP is drinking the oil industry Kool Aid. All cars come with the same sensors and send the same data home. It has nothing to do with the engine.
We should have laws against it, but it certainly isn’t limitteed to EVs.
you’re starting too far down the line
most vehicles nowadays are gimmicks
the real question is why can’t we get a simple economical vehicle and not unrepairable subcription-based spyware on wheels with dangerous features, regardless of engine type
You’re starting too far down the line.
Most products and services nowadays are gimmicks.
The real question is why can’t we get a simple good product and not inequitable take-it-or-leave it bullshit with delusional prices, regardless of where.
I mean when it comes to price it’s because the US banned chinese car companies. If BYD was allowed to sell here it would destroy these overpriced domestic manufacturers. They’re still annoyingly “smart” but they’re atleast not expensive as all hell.
Dacia Spring ?
Dacia is usually pretty much bare bones
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Show me a single non-EV car for sale that doesn’t raise all the same objections
Why should I buy a non-electric car? I think my question got misunderstood.
I think it’s a salient point: It’s not just EVs. The entire industry has gone whole-hog on the “rolling data center” model.
As to “why” from your post title…well, I assumed it was a rhetorical question to introduce a (short) rant about the sad state of the automobile market.
Their point is that you are just nostalgic for old cars, simpler cars. All modern cars are overcomplicated, EV or not
no reason! I had a 2017 BMW i3 for five years and now going on five years with a 2022 Taycan wagon, I’m all for BEVs!
It’s just that no new cars, regardless of powertrain, are available without the “smart” shit
Chinese companies are exporting basic EVs like you’re talking about that sell for like $15k. Sadly if you’re American you can’t buy one because Freedom!!!
I have a BYD dolphin and it’s great!
They sell for $15k in China, but you can’t compare those prices. Canada and Australia have allowed Chinese EV imports, nothing is below $40K in Canada, Australia has the BYD Atto, at $20k, but it’s a cheaply built car, likely disposable.
The BYD small EVs all have good safety ratings and they have been around for a while, so I don’t know why you think they are disposable
You’re right, the foreign prices are higher because of tariffs and other govt fees, shipping, storage, etc. and markups added by dealers because they can. But the end prices tend to be 25-30% less than other EVs with similar basic specs (minus frills).
Mostly because they can. You really need to have everything automated anyway, you need at least a backup screen, so you might as well put it on that screen. It’s probably cheaper at that point to control everything by screen than to do install buttons
There’s still some hope
This is like the System 76 of cars.
Driving a kia e-niro. There’s nothing gimmicky about it except for the melody that plays when you start the car. Everything else is pretty much down to earth regular car stuff. And with a price below 40k, in 2021, I think it wasn’t even that expensive for a EV.
My FIL has a 2021 Smart ForFour EV that’s as barebones as it gets. No screen, buttons and knobs for the climate control, popout rear windows AND an actual key you have to put into an actual hole.
It also looks like manufacturers are catching on and making EVs for normal people. Renault. Kia and Hyundai all have nice selections plus some of the Chinese models from Leap and BYD.
So it’s definitely getting better on the EV front.
My family has a 2019 Nissan leaf and the infotainment center feels like it’s from 2012, so I wouldn’t say it feels like a smartphone.
They do. Or least they sometimes do. I drive a Kia Soul EV. It’s… a Kia Soul with an electric motor and battery instead of all the internal combustion stuff.
Haven’t souls been discontinued?
Yeah. I was merely noting that there’s a precedent for “normal-car-but-with-EV-stuff-instead.” It’s a shame that the Soul EV was given such a limited distribution. It’s easily my favorite car I’ve ever owned.
KIA is one of the worst offenders regarding continuous surveillance and then selling the data to third parties.
A tip for others:
To ensure your driving data (like braking habits or speed metrics) is completely decoupled from third-party data brokers and insurance exchanges:
• App Settings: Open the Kia Access mobile app, navigate to Account Settings / Privacy, and opt out of all data-sharing programs (specifically anything tied to “Driver Score” or Usage-Based Insurance
I think that that’s kind of a problem with almost all new cars, not just EVs.
Slate’s a pretty stripped-down EV. It’s got a mount where you can stick a phone or tablet if you want, but nothing built-in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_(vehicle)
No cell radio. Doesn’t even have power windows in the base configuration; it comes with air conditioning and air bags and that’s about it.
Note that the range is shorter than, say, a Tesla Model 3 or something.
Why are there no normal
electriccars instead of gimicks on wheels? is probably the first question.your statement goes well outside just cars too. all house appliances to start.
Actually your recipe for an electric car is what US manufacturers tried to do because it didn’t require as much retooling. Turns out it is a pretty bad way to make an electric vehicle from scratch. The batteries are big and heavy and need their own space. The best place is in the bottom for weight distribution but instead they had to cram them in the existing engine compartment along with the motor. It’s just not as good as designing it to be electric from the ground up. Most of them were compromised and thus didn’t sell well.
Regarding the rolling data center, that’s actually a different problem that applies to pretty much all new cars. There is a growing backlash against all of these features (and lack of buttons). Unfortunately, it kind of falls on deaf ears. I think this is why US manufacturers are scared of Chinese EVs. They take a more practical view of the vehicle. Although, I don’t actually know how much spying these Chinese vehicles do. It wouldn’t be like the Chinese to miss that opportunity.
I have actually converted an old diesel land rover to electric. NDA so I can’t disclose the company, but we replaced the transmission with an electric motor that had an adapter plate to the original transfer case. The engine was replaced with a large battery pack and some electric pumps, handfull of heat exchangers. As you said, converting is never as good. A big heavy pack where the motor was makes it more front heavy than with the diesel 4 cylinder, range was about 120 miles which is pretty piss poor compared to what it could do with the diesel powertrain. It was very cool in theory, but not a practical vehicle. Another company has done a different ev conversion on some of the LR’s and they used a Tesla drivetrain if I’m not mistaken, and had to split up the battery pack and spread it across 3 different locations in the vehicle. Purpose built evs are definatley the way for packaging, although repowering classics that only get tooled around here and there to get ice cream or go golfing on the weekend is a neat concept. The weight distribution of the components is just so different from an ice that it necessitates a ground up design. Electric motors are far lighter than ice engines, but they need FAR more weight in battery packs than a tank of fuel for comparable range so u cant exactly just replace the fuel tank with a battery pack and expect it to go far.
why would such work require an nda?
Because the company that “builds” the ev converted vehicle actually just designs and sources parts + the vehicle, our shop is the one that actually built them (at least for the USA based clients). I’m not sure the buyer knows it was done by us or not, I’m sure it doesn’t much matter. There’s only a handful of companies that offer this so it wouldnt be too hard for u to narrow it down to a couple!
Ah. So it’s kind of a secret that they don’t do their own work…
Is it just fancy and expensive cars that do this? I have an old hatchback I’d like to convert, but otherwise it would go to the scrapyard.
Not the same guy, but I’ve been around a DIY conversion. You can do it to any vehicle you want, but some make more sense than others. Assuming your ‘old hatchback’ is 80s-90s, probably not a great fit. Like he said the whole thing is really a packaging problem, and that’s gonna be rough on a unibody compact. Older, bigger stuff is easier, and I probably wouldn’t bother with something that wasn’t body on frame. The one I observed myself was a 2000-ish Ford Ranger, and that worked out really well. Two large rectangular battery boxes parallel with the driveshaft between the frame rails under the bed, motor in place of engine, controllers etc in extra space under hood. Total cost ~10k, hours hard to guess but a good winter’s worth of weekends
Unfortunately the components and labor time make it very cost prohibitive to have somebody do it for you, the only way it makes any financial sense to me is if your capable of doing the conversion yourself. The company we built some evs for only does them for fairly expensive classics so they are not chasing affordability, and for the money u can get a much better ev. With these people ur paying to have a bespoke electrified classic, not necessarily a prectical ev. As the other comment response to you stated a small unibody is very had to convert, and honestly would probably makes more sense to put a more efficient ice engine in. Fwd cars usually have low floor pans so nowhere to put batteries besides in place of the fuel tank or in the engine bay. Then you need to consider how the wheels will get powered, and you start getting into custom machined parts and the cost starts to jump. This is one of those things where it’s a lot easier if somebody has already done it, if your the first on a specific platform your going to have to design ur own systems and parts to make it possible. For example your fwd hatchback doesn’t have a transfer case we can make an adapter plate for and bolt an electric motor to, and most small case fwd transaxles can’t handle the torque of an electric motor so just bolting it to the transmission may not work or last long. It can get pretty complicated pretty quick, not that internal combustion engines necessarily simpler, but the ecosystem they need is already in the car and the cars already been designed around it. Ev drivetrains are also pretty heavy so starting with a small light car is difficult, roll center and center of gravity will be affected, weight added. It may snowball into needing stiffer suspension, larger brakes etc and the car certainly won’t drive the way it did before. Hate to say it but the cost of a custom converversion is likely going to be more than the cost of a slate truck or something lol.
Less spying is absolutely not why US manufacturers are scared of Chinese EVs, it’s cheap labor and long term state backing. I have a bridge to sell to anyone who thinks Chinese EVs aren’t spying, hahaha
I’d rather have China spy on me than US corporations or state. I don’t live in China and have no fear that their surveillance will result in a fascist goon at my doorstep.
That’s where I’m at. What’s China realistically going to do with that data?? If I’m going to be spied on no matter what I’d rather have it be done by a country across the world and get a reasonably priced EV too.
Sure, there’s absolutely no way that data from China can end up in the US. Even if offered money, you can trust that no data collector in China would ever accept money in exchange for user data. Also, they’re all excellent at keeping it secure, so rest assured it will never get leaked!
Oh yeah if I buy American there’s no way my data would get sold. American companies are known for their solid moral compass and they put customer satisfaction over profits. And there’s never been a data breach from an American company ever!! :D
And i want to be a good American consumer and pay an American car company 4x to 5x the price of the cheap and affordable Chinese EV. Since I got all this money from tariff rebate and doge checks I can afford to buy an American EV.
Then you’re an idiot.
because that information is gonna end up in the same markets as the information from anywhere else, and its going to fuck you over in the long term.
You’re too obsessed with government jackboots coming to your door to even consider your car and health insurance premiums skyrocketing at best, or getting dropped at worst, because your driving data was sold to them and they decided you were too much a risk despite a clean driving record.
and thats only a small example of what can be done with this data. it could affect a lot more as companies try to analyze you and your actions and catagorize you. or even better, explode your phone with advertising with every store you’re driving past.
I mean, I’d rather not be spied on at all, but at least a Chinese collector has to find an American buyer, whereas the American collector is the American buyer. But I agree with you, mass surveillance is bad no matter who is doing it.
yeah but I’d rather China spy on me than an actively hostile nation that’s a greater threat to me
either way, not buying a car like that
There’s a startup that is making a totally bare bones car called Slate. I really don’t understand why every car has an ipad when I just need a place for my phone and it will accomplish the same thing (minus a back up camera which I find completely unnecessary).
The problem is they have over done it. To add just one little thing you want boosts the price into the range of say a Chevy Bolt, which is a much more polished vehicle. But I do like the look and the idea. The fact that Amazon (or was it just Bezos?) is involved is as little troubling.
Seems hard to justify $25k for Slate (if you add absolutely nothing to it) vs. something from an established automaker for a similar price. For example, I think the Ford Fathom will also ship in 2027 (same year as Slate) for <$30k.
I love Slate, but there’s something (perhaps irrational) in my psychology that blocks me from paying $25k for a vehicle with manual-crank windows. I remember what it’s like to reach across the cab to awkwardly roll up a window that a passenger left open. I paid <$1k for those old beater vehicles.
I actually agree. I think power mirrors and power windows are very worthwhile.
On the other hand, I don’t know why anyone wants a trunk or hatch that closes itself. I find them annoying and unnecessary.
Others mentioned it too, but a nissan leaf is as basic a car as it gets. There used to be many of them on the roads. I guess people who can afford having a car with a limited range that can only be charged in a facility or a garage (which excludes long range commuters and apartment dwellers), want to get a truck or a cool car with gimmicks, not a basic car.
